A conversation with Avery Collins

Talking race day tactics and training with my coach

We’re mere days away from the Catamount 50K on June 27, and it feels like a good time to check in with my coach, Avery Collins. When I hired Avery back in March, I had no idea what to expect, but I wanted to see if I could take my running to the next level. 

After training myself for the past seven years, I knew that there would be a transition period. I was hardly surprised when the first thing Avery told me was that I would be frustrated for the first 4-6 weeks. He was right about the frustration part at first, but my learning curve was quicker than either of us expected. It wasn’t long before I started becoming more comfortable with his approach. 

(See other unlocked Countdown to Catamount posts: Running by Feel and The Tao of the 20-miler.)

After a breakthrough period in April, I felt a slight knee twinge that morphed into a larger knee issue and put me on the shelf for several weeks. With the help of my brilliant massage therapist, I was able to get my body back in working order just in time to finish the training block for the Catamount with a strong 20-miler. It wasn’t perfect, but we got the work done that needed to be done. 

Here’s my conversation with Avery about training, race day strategy, hydration, nutrition, and choosing the right shoes. (Check out Power Couple Coaching for more information.)  

Avery in his element. Follow his adventures on IG @Runninhigh

Paul Flannery: How do you feel like the training went?

Avery Collins: For me, March was as good as it could have been. I thought that was literally perfect. In April we started to hit the groove where it was more about base mileage. To be perfectly honest, I was getting a little scared during May when you were injured. I just didn’t know if this was going to work. 

Jumping forward to that 20-mile run, I really hope that you are incredibly confident.

PF: That month of May was so hard. I kept thinking, I’m losing ground and there’s nothing I can do about it. But it also put me in a mindset where I have to worry about what I have, not what I lost. Out of curiosity, how much did I lose? 

AC: You had eight weeks of good training. Then in May you had two weeks that were absolutely not there. Had it been perfect, you probably would have seen a couple of 45-mile weeks and one 55-65 mile week. The lack of volume was made up for with quality runs. 

PF: I understand that it’s not optimal, but is there something to be said for being fresh instead of having a lot of miles? 

AC: I’ve been in this exact same spot. What helps is you’re staying active. The key was when you weren’t running, you had days when you were doing yoga or strength training or both. I’d rather have you run more miles. But it can still be done, especially if you are consistent about doing strength training. 

PF: Let’s talk about the speed block we did in April. That was the first time I stayed committed to that kind of an approach. I thought they went well?  

AC: All the speed efforts went better than planned. You were going faster than my goal paces. With my paces, the bar is never easy. You have to be on point, period. It’s not uncommon for my athletes to not hit a workout. The block went better than anticipated. You managed really well, there. 

PF: What I didn’t expect was the other types of runs, like the aerobic progression. I had never done those before. To dial those in made a huge difference in how I approach training runs. What’s the key to nailing those? 

AC: I think this is far more important for ultra running than half or full marathons. Ultimately, we’re not just training for a 50K. We’re training for a 50-miler, and so on, because your ambitions aren’t stopping with 50K. What we’re trying to get is (heart rate) zone distinction. 

It would be awesome if you could pull off running this 50K in Zone 3 and just rip it, but that’s probably not going to happen. When you dip into Zone 1 or Zone 2, like when you’re power hiking, lactic acid builds up. We want to make sure that your body is efficient in those zones. 

For example, a 10K or a 5K runner are incredible anaerobic runners. When they dip into a low zone, they have no efficiency in that gear and it eats away at the fat stores really fast. They bonk. 

One we get into 50 miles and beyond, you need to be incredibly efficient in Zone 1, Zone 2, and Zone 3. Having those zone distinctions is what’s going to build up efficiency in terms of fat metabolism. In a 50-miler, with where you are right now, you might spend less than 20 minutes in Zone 4. 

I’m not worried about your efficiency in terms of burning carbs and sugars. I want you to be efficient as a fat burning athlete. That’s exactly what those progression runs are designed for. 

PF: Did you have any expectations when we started? 

AC: I start fresh with everybody. I have this mindset where: we’re going to have a barrier, this barrier that I told you about (where you’d be frustrated). It’s common with everyone. Most people are not willing to run at 50 percent effort level. It just doesn’t exist for them. That’s ultimately the most important thing for an ultra runner. 

You handled the heart rate thing really well. Most of my athletes, the first 4-6 weeks the conversation is, ‘I need you to slow down. Your watch isn’t lying to you.’ We’re all ambitious and we naturally want to work hard. I get it. Sometimes it’s not a matter of working harder. It’s a matter of working smarter. 

Where I see blowups is when the athlete does not run slow enough throughout their training block. You can only maintain a Zone 3 effort for so long. An incredibly efficient, fat and carb adapted athlete can hold that Zone 3 effort for up to 60 minutes before they have to drop down in pace and recover before picking it up again. It’s a matter of how many times you can return to that level. 

What I see, especially for a 100 miler, they may have built up incredible tempo runs and they’re super strong, where they’re going to blow up is between that 50-and-70 mile marker because they’ve been burning the engine red hot. 

PF: When I talk to beginner runners, I always tell them they need to slow down, which they don’t want to hear. At the same time, I thought I was trying to slow down, but I wasn’t always disciplined with it. I feel like a smarter runner now. 

Speaking of running smarter! Let’s talk about race day strategy. I like to have some kind of strategy going into a race, but I have a feeling we’re going to get granular in a way that I never have before. 

(Ed note: This is a double loop course, meaning I’ll run the same 15.5 mile twice.) 

AC: Taking into consideration your training and most importantly, that last 20 mile run, plus your race history, my goal time for you is 5 hours and 40 minutes. I know that’s your exact time from your last race, but this one has double the vertical. That would be an 11-minute pace. This race is pretty competitive. I think there’s something to be said for competition and it will bring a little more out of you. If you do better, so be it. 

Miles 5-10 and 20-25 are going to be incredibly important. You’re not raging, but you’re going to need to be going fast. That’s 10 miles of the race that's an extremely runnable portion of the course. Your goal pace for that should be 9-9:30 based on technicality, or lack thereof. On that second five mile stretch, if you feel like you’ve got the gas, just let it go for Miles 20-25. 

Miles 3-5 and 18-20 look steep on the profile, but when you break it down, it’s like 8.5 or 9 percent grade on average. You can run quite a bit of that, if not even most of it. That first lap, you should do a 4-minute run followed by a 2-minute hike. You’ll do that twice for one mile and twice for the next mile. On the second lap, you do 4-1. You should be able to pull off a 13-minute mile. 

If you get on the second lap and you feel like you can run/jog the whole thing, go for it. A 13 or 13:30 mile through those sections are going to be plenty fast. For the rest of the race, I’d be shooting for 12:30 pace on the ups and around 10-10:30 on the flat. 

With all that being said, that would put you closer to a 10:45 pace. There’s a little bit of leeway for aid station time. It would be great if you don’t hit the wall, but there’s going to be ups and downs for sure. 

PF: So, when I said I had a race strategy before, I should acknowledge that I did not actually have a strategy. In terms of hydration and nutrition, my plan is to have two 20 oz bottles of Tailwind hydration mix, each with three scoops for 300 calories, plus Muir Energy gels. How does that sound?  

AC: Ok, I wouldn’t do 300 calories at the start of the race. You’re already going to have energy stores in your system and I don’t want you reducing the amount of water you’re drinking because it’s loaded with calories. Two scoops would be great. You should have that bottle down by the 90-minute mark. 

Somewhere between that first and second aid station, you should put down a gel. You’ll come into that second aid station at about an hour and 45 minutes. That bottle should be drained by this point. By the start finish/line when you pick up the second bottle, eat two more gels. Through the first half, let’s start with the fruit gels.  

Second time through with that second bottle, go with three scoops and pick up four gels. One before every aid station would be perfect. Go with half fast burn and half slow burn and alternate every aid station. You should also carry Tums or Gin-Gins in a baggy in case you run into any stomach issues. With the hydration mix, the amount of sodium should be just fine, so there’s no need for salt pills. 

PF: For the drop bag at the midway point, I’m not planning on much. Spare bottle, dry socks if I really need them. Dry hat. Anything else? 

AC: Bodyglide in case there’s any weird chafing. Backup socks are cool. Only plan on changing them if you’re having some foot problems. Otherwise keep it moving. 

PF: Good call. I have a hot spot on the back of my shoulder that’s annoying. As for shoes, I feel good in the (Saucony) Peregrine’s. They’ve taken me this far. I have about 150 miles on them, which is a little more than I’d like. I just opened the box on a second pair and have only 20 miles on them. My thought is to stick with the first pair. Thoughts? 

AC: This is a super individual preference. I like to start with an almost brand new pair. I like that they’re stiff and the lugs are brand new. That’s worked for me. However, when I worked at the running store, I always suggested that people should have 50-100 miles on a shoe before racing. But 150 is fine. I’d wear those. 

PF: Anything else stand out? 

AC: I’m pretty impressed at how fast this race is. It appears the people that run this race are out there for blood. Keep in mind, this is a really competitive race. Don’t get caught up in anyone’s race but yours. If your watch clicks an 8-minute mile, you need to readjust because you’re letting somebody drag you into their race. It’s a patience game. 

For me, in the first half of a race I always say to myself, ‘Are you going to do that on the back half?’ I’d rather prove to myself that I’m going to do it on the back half. Keep that in the back of your mind. If you feel like you’re running hard on that first big climb, ask yourself, ‘Am I going to run this hard at Mile 18?’ 

The truth is, if you run your race, you’re going to pass 20-30 people on the second half. 

PF: I’ve gotten so much better at not running other people’s races. When I was road running, I’d be personally offended when people passed me. 

AC: (Laughs) Don’t you know who I am? 

PF: Totally, I was so bad. I will say this, when you do get somebody near the end of a race and you beat them, and you know you have them beat, and they know you have them beat, that is pretty cool. 

AC: Yeeeeeaaaah, absolutely. The truth is 80 percent of the field will have no idea what they’re doing, so you have to be patient. 

PF: I’m kind of curious how this is going to go. I’ve never gone into a race with this level of preparation. 

AC: I think everything’s lining up really well. After that 20-mile run you should have the utmost confidence. I was pretty blown away, dude. When I saw that pace, I was like, oh my God, what was the vertical? Even with the 2,500 feet you did, it was still perfect. 

PF: I’ll take that! 

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